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The　Writings　of　Abraham　Lincoln



by　Abraham　Lincoln









VOLUME　IV



THE　LINCOLN…DOUGLAS　DEBATES　II









LINCOLN　AND　DOUGLAS　FOURTH　JOINT　DEBATE；



AT　CHARLESTON；　SEPTEMBER　18；　1858。



LADIES　AND　GENTLEMEN：It　will　be　very　difficult　for　an　audience　so

large　as　this　to　hear　distinctly　what　a　speaker　says；　and

consequently　it　is　important　that　as　profound　silence　be　preserved　as

possible。



While　I　was　at　the　hotel　to…day；　an　elderly　gentleman　called　upon　me

to　know　whether　I　was　really　in　favor　of　producing　a　perfect　equality

between　the　negroes　and　white　people。　　While　I　had　not　proposed　to

myself　on　this　occasion　to　say　much　on　that　subject；　yet　as　the

question　was　asked　me　I　thought　I　would　occupy　perhaps　five　minutes

in　saying　something　in　regard　to　it。　　I　will　say；　then；　that　I　am

not；　nor　ever　have　been；　in　favor　of　bringing　about　in　any　way　the

social　and　political　equality　of　the　white　and　black　races；　that　I　am

not；　nor　ever　have　been；　in　favor　of　making　voters　or　jurors　of

negroes；　nor　of　qualifying　them　to　hold　office；　nor　to　intermarry

with　white　people；　and　I　will　say；　in　addition　to　this；　that　there　is

a　physical　difference　between　the　white　and　black　races　which　I

believe　will　forever　forbid　the　two　races　living　together　on　terms　of

social　and　political　equality。　　And　in　as　much　as　they　cannot　so

live；　while　they　do　remain　together　there　must　be　the　position　of

superior　and　inferior；　and　I　as　much　as　any　other　man　am　in　favor　of

having　the　superior　position　assigned　to　the　white　race。　　I　say　upon

this　occasion　I　do　not　perceive　that　because　the　white　man　is　to　have

the　superior　position　the　negro　should　be　denied　everything。　　I　do

not　understand　that　because　I　do　not　want　a　negro　woman　for　a　slave　I

must　necessarily　want　her　for　a　wife。　　My　understanding　is　that　I　can

just　let　her　alone。　　I　am　now　in　my　fiftieth　year；　and　I　certainly

never　have　had　a　black　woman　for　either　a　slave　or　a　wife。　　So　it

seems　to　me　quite　possible　for　us　to　get　along　without　making　either

slaves　or　wives　of　negroes。　　I　will　add　to　this　that　I　have　never

seen；　to　my　knowledge；　a　man；　woman；　or　child　who　was　in　favor　of

producing　a　perfect　equality；　social　and　political；　between　negroes

and　white　men。　　I　recollect　of　but　one　distinguished　instance　that　I

ever　heard　of　so　frequently　as　to　be　entirely　satisfied　of　its

correctness；　and　that　is　the　case　of　Judge　Douglas's　old　friend

Colonel　Richard　M。　Johnson。　　I　will　also　add　to　the　remarks　I　have

made　（for　I　am　not　going　to　enter　at　large　upon　this　subject）；　that　I

have　never　had　the　least　apprehension　that　I　or　my　friends　would

marry　negroes　if　there　was　no　law　to　keep　them　from　it；　but　as　Judge

Douglas　and　his　friends　seem　to　be　in　great　apprehension　that　they

might；　if　there　were　no　law　to　keep　them　from　it；　I　give　him　the　most

solemn　pledge　that　I　will　to　the　very　last　stand　by　the　law　of　this

State　which　forbids　the　marrying　of　white　people　with　negroes。　　I

will　add　one　further　word；　which　is　this：　that　I　do　not　understand

that　there　is　any　place　where　an　alteration　of　the　social　and

political　relations　of　the　negro　and　the　white　man　can　be　made；

except　in　the　State　Legislature；not　in　the　Congress　of　the　United

States；　and　as　I　do　not　really　apprehend　the　approach　of　any　such

thing　myself；　and　as　Judge　Douglas　seems　to　be　in　constant　horror

that　some　such　danger　is　rapidly　approaching；　I　propose　as　the　best

means　to　prevent　it　that　the　Judge　be　kept　at　home；　and　placed　in　the

State　Legislature　to　fight　the　measure。　　I　do　not　propose　dwelling

longer　at　this　time　on　this　subject。



When　Judge　Trumbull；　our　other　Senator　in　Congress；　returned　to

Illinois　in　the　month　of　August；　he　made　a　speech　at　Chicago；　in

which　he　made　what　may　be　called　a　charge　against　Judge　Douglas；

which　I　understand　proved　to　be　very　offensive　to　him。　　The　Judge　was

at　that　time　out　upon　one　of　his　speaking　tours　through　the　country；

and　when　the　news　of　it　reached　him；　as　I　am　informed；　he　denounced

Judge　Trumbull　in　rather　harsh　terms　for　having　said　what　he　did　in

regard　to　that　matter。　　I　was　traveling　at　that　time；　and　speaking　at

the　same　places　with　Judge　Douglas　on　subsequent　days；　and　when　I

heard　of　what　Judge　Trumbull　had　said　of　Douglas；　and　what　Douglas

had　said　back　again；　I　felt　that　I　was　in　a　position　where　I　could

not　remain　entirely　silent　in　regard　to　the　matter。　　Consequently；

upon　two　or　three　occasions　I　alluded　to　it；　and　alluded　to　it　in　no

other　wise　than　to　say　that　in　regard　to　the　charge　brought　by

Trumbull　against　Douglas；　I　personally　knew　nothing；　and　sought　to

say　nothing　about　it；　that　I　did　personally　know　Judge　Trumbull；　that

I　believed　him　to　be　a　man　of　veracity；　that　I　believed　him　to　be　a

man　of　capacity　sufficient　to　know　very　well　whether　an　assertion　he

was　making；　as　a　conclusion　drawn　from　a　set　of　facts；　was　true　or

false；　and　as　a　conclusion　of　my　own　from　that；　I　stated　it　as　my

belief　if　Trumbull　should　ever　be　called　upon；　he　would　prove

everything　he　had　said。　　I　said　this　upon　two　or　three　occasions。

Upon　a　subsequent　occasion；　Judge　Trumbull　spoke　again　before　an

audience　at　Alton；　and　upon　that　occasion　not　only　repeated　his

charge　against　Douglas；　but　arrayed　the　evidence　he　relied　upon　to

substantiate　it。　　This　speech　was　published　at　length；　and

subsequently　at　Jacksonville　Judge　Douglas　alluded　to　the　matter。　　In

the　course　of　his　speech；　and　near　the　close　of　it；　he　stated　in

regard　to　myself　what　I　will　now　read：



〃Judge　Douglas　proceeded　to　remark　that　he　should　not　hereafter

occupy　his　time　in　refuting　such　charges　made　by　Trumbull；　but　that；

Lincoln　having　indorsed　the　character　of　Trumbull　for　veracity；　he

should　hold　him　（Lincoln）　responsible　for　the　slanders。〃



I　have　done　simply　what　I　have　told　you；　to　subject　me　to　this

invitation　to　notice　the　charge。　　I　now　wish　to　say　that　it　had　not

originally　been　my　purpose　to　discuss　that　matter　at　all　　But　in…as…

much　as　it　seems　to　be　the　wish　of　Judge　Douglas　to　hold　me

responsible　for　it；　then　for　once　in　my　life　I　will　play　General

Jackson；　and　to　the　just　extent　I　take　the　responsibility。



I　wish　to　say　at　the　beginning　that　I　will　hand　to　the　reporters　that

portion　of　Judge　Trumbull's　Alton　speech　which　was　devoted　to　this

matter；　and　also　that　portion　of　Judge　Douglas's　speech　made　at

Jacksonville　in　answer　to　it。　　I　shall　thereby　furnish　the　readers　of

this　debate　with　the　complete　discussion　between　Trumbull　and

Douglas。　　I　cannot　now　read　them；　for　the　reason　that　it　would　take

half　of　my　first　hour　to　do　so。　　I　can　only　make　some　comments　upon

them。　　Trumbull's　charge　is　in　the　following　words：



〃Now；　the　charge　is；　that　there　was　a　plot　entered　into　to　have　a

constitution　formed　for　Kansas；　and　put　in　force；　without　giving　the

people　an　opportunity　to　vote　upon　it；　and　that　Mr。　Douglas　was　in

the　plot。〃



I　will　state；　without　quoting　further；　for　all　will　have　an

opportunity　of　reading　it　hereafter；　that　Judge　Trumbull　brings

forward　what　he　regards　as　sufficient　evidence　to　substantiate　this

charge。



It　will　be　perceived　Judge　Trumbull　shows　that　Senator　Bigler；　upon

the　floor　of　the　Senate；　had　declared　there　had　been　a　conference

among　the　senators；　in　which　conference　it　was　determined　to　have　an

enabling　act　passed　for　the　people　of　Kansas　to　form　a　constitution

under；　and　in　this　conference　it　was　agreed　among　them　that　it　was

best　not　to　have　a　provision　for　submitting　the　constitution　to　a

vote　of　the　people　after　it　should　be　formed。　　He　then　brings　forward

to　show；　and　showing；　as　he　deemed；　that　Judge　Douglas　reported　the

bill　back　to　the　Senate　with　that　clause　stricken　out。　　He　then　shows

that　there　was　a　new　clause　inserted　into　the　bill；　which　would　in

its　nature　prevent　a　reference　of　the　constitution　back　for　a　vote　of

the　people；if；　indeed；　upon　a　mere　silence　in　the　law；　it　could　be

assumed　that　they　had　the　right　to　vote　upon　it。　　These　are　the

general　statements　that　he　has　made。



I　propose　to　examine　the　points　in　Judge　Douglas's　speech　in　which　he

attempts　to　answer　that　speech　of　Judge　Trumbull's。　　When　you　come　to

examine　Judge　Douglas's　speech；　you　will　find　that　the　first　point　he

makes　is：



〃Suppose　it　were　true　that　there　was　such　a　change　in　the　bill；　and

that　I　struck　it　out；is　that　a　proof　of　a　plot　to　force　a

constitution　upon　them　against　their　will？〃



His　striking　out　such　a　provision；　if　there　was　such　a　one　in　the

bill；　he　argues；　does　not　establish　the　proof　that　it　was　stricken

out　for　the　purpose　of　robbing　the　people　of　that　right。　　I　would

say；　in　the　first　place；　that　that　would　be　a　most　manifest　reason

for　it。　　It　is　true；　as　Judge　Douglas　states；　that　many　Territorial

bills　have　passed　without　having　such　a　provision　in　them。　　I　believe

it　is　true；　though　I　am　not　certain；　that　in　some　instances

constitutions　framed　under　such　bills　have　been　submitted　to　a　vote

of　the　people　with　the　law　silent　upon　the　subject；　but　it　does　not

appear　that　they　once　had　their　enabling　acts　framed　with　an　express

provision　for　submitting　the　constitution　to　be　framed　to　a　vote　of

the　people；　then　that　they　were　stricken　out　when　Congress　did　not

mean　to　alter　the　effect　of　the　law。　　That　there　have　been　bills

which　never　had　the　provision　in；　I　do　not　question；　but　when　was

that　provision　taken　out　of　one　that　it　was　in？　　More　especially　does

the　evidence　tend　to　prove　the　proposition　that　Trumbull　advanced；

when　we　remember　that　the　provision　was　stricken　out　of　the　bill

almost　simultaneously　with　the　time　that　Bigler　says　there　was　a

conference　among　certain　senators；　and　in　which　it　was　agreed　that　a

bill　should　be　passed　leaving　that　out。　　Judge　Douglas；　in　answering

Trumbull；　omits　to　attend　to　the　testimony　of　Bigler；　that　there　was

a　meeting　in　whi