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provision　of　the　bill；　and　that　on　his　motion　it　was　stricken　out　and

a　substitute　inserted。　　That　I　presume　is　the　truth。　　I　presume　it　is

true　that　that　last　proposition　was　stricken　out　by　Judge　Douglas。

Trumbull　has　not　said　it　was　not；　Trumbull　has　himself　said　that　it

was　so　stricken　out。　　He　says：　〃I　am　now　speaking　of　the　bill　as

Judge　Douglas　reported　it　back。　　It　was　amended　somewhat　in　the

Senate　before　it　passed；　but　I　am　speaking　of　it　as　he　brought　it

back。〃　　Now；　when　Judge　Douglas　parades　the　fact　that　the　provision

was　stricken　out　of　the　bill　when　it　came　back；　he　asserts　nothing

contrary　to　what　Trumbull　alleges。　　Trumbull　has　only　said　that　he

originally　put　it　in；　not　that　he　did　not　strike　it　out。　　Trumbull

says　it　was　not　in　the　bill　when　it　went　to　the　committee。　　When　it

came　back　it　was　in；　and　Judge　Douglas　said　the　alterations　were　made

by　him　in　consultation　with　Toomb's。　　Trumbull　alleges；　therefore；　as

his　conclusion；　that　Judge　Douglas　put　it　in。　　Then；　if　Douglas　wants

to　contradict　Trumbull　and　call　him　a　liar；　let　him　say　he　did　not

put　it　in；　and　not　that　he　did　n't　take　it　out　again。　　It　is　said

that　a　bear　is　sometimes　hard　enough　pushed　to　drop　a　cub；　and　so　I

presume　it　was　in　this　case。　　I　presume　the　truth　is　that　Douglas　put

it　in；　and　afterward　took　it　out。　　That；　I　take　it；　is　the　truth

about　it。　　Judge　Trumbull　says　one　thing；　Douglas　says　another　thing；

and　the　two　don't　contradict　one　another　at　all。　　The　question　is；

what　did　he　put　it　in　for？　　In　the　first　place；　what　did　he　take　the

other　provision　out　of　the　bill　for；the　provision　which　Trumbull

argued　was　necessary　for　submitting　the　constitution　to　a　vote　of　the

people？　　What　did　he　take　that　out　for；　and；　having　taken　it　out；

what　did　he　put　this　in　for？　　I　say　that　in　the　run　of　things　it　is

not　unlikely　forces　conspire　to　render　it　vastly　expedient　for　Judge

Douglas　to　take　that　latter　clause　out　again。　　The　question　that

Trumbull　has　made　is　that　Judge　Douglas　put　it　in；　and　he　don't　meet

Trumbull　at　all　unless　he　denies　that。



In　the　clause　of　Judge　Douglas's　speech　upon　this　subject　he　uses

this　language　toward　Judge　Trumbull。　　He　says：



〃He　forges　his　evidence　from　beginning　to　end；　and　by　falsifying　the

record；　he　endeavors　to　bolster　up　his　false　charge。〃



Well；　that　is　a　pretty　serious　statementTrumbull　forges　his

evidence　from　beginning　to　end。　　Now；　upon　my　own　authority　I　say

that　it　is　not　true。　　What　is　a　forgery？　　Consider　the　evidence　that

Trumbull　has　brought　forward。　　When　you　come　to　read　the　speech；　as

you　will　be　able　to；　examine　whether　the　evidence　is　a　forgery　from

beginning　to　end。　　He　had　the　bill　or　document　in　his　hand　like　that

＇holding　up　a　paper＇。　　He　says　that　is　a　copy　of　the　Toomb's　bill；

the　amendment　offered　by　Toomb's。　　He　says　that　is　a　copy　of　the　bill

as　it　was　introduced　and　went　into　Judge　Douglas's　hands。　　Now；　does

Judge　Douglas　say　that　is　a　forgery？　　That　is　one　thing　Trumbull

brought　forward。　　Judge　Douglas　says　he　forged　it　from　beginning　to

end！　　That　is　the　〃beginning；〃　we　will　say。　　Does　Douglas　say　that　is

a　forgery？　　Let　him　say　it　to…day；　and　we　will　have　a　subsequent

examination　upon　this　subject。　　Trumbull　then　holds　up　another

document　like　this；　and　says　that　is　an　exact　copy　of　the　bill　as　it

came　back　in　the　amended　form　out　of　Judge　Douglas's　hands。　　Does

Judge　Douglas　say　that　is　a　forgery？　　Does　he　say　it　in　his　general

sweeping　charge？　　Does　he　say　so　now？　　If　he　does　not；　then　take　this

Toomb's　bill　and　the　bill　in　the　amended　form；　and　it　only　needs　to

compare　them　to　see　that　the　provision　is　in　the　one　and　not　in　the

other；　it　leaves　the　inference　inevitable　that　it　was　taken　out。



But；　while　I　am　dealing　with　this　question；　let　us　see　what

Trumbull's　other　evidence　is。　　One　other　piece　of　evidence　I　will

read。　　Trumbull　says　there　are　in　this　original　Toomb's　bill　these

words：



〃That　the　following　propositions　be　and　the　same　are　hereby　offered

to　the　said　Convention　of　the　people　of　Kansas；　when　formed；　for

their　free　acceptance　or　rejection；　which；　if　accepted　by　the

Convention　and　ratified　by　the　people　at　the　election　for　the

adoption　of　the　constitution；　shall　be　obligatory　upon　the　United

States　and　the　said　State　of　Kansas。〃



Now；　if　it　is　said　that　this　is　a　forgery；　we　will　open　the　paper

here　and　see　whether　it　is　or　not。　　Again；　Trumbull　says；　as　he　goes

along；　that　Mr。　Bigler　made　the　following　statement　in　his　place　in

the　Senate；　December　9；　1857：



〃I　was　present　when　that　subject　was　discussed　by　senators　before　the

bill　was　introduced；　and　the　question　was　raised　and　discussed；

whether　the　constitution；　when　formed；　should　be　submitted　to　a　vote

of　the　people。　　It　was　held　by　those　most　intelligent　on　the　subject

that；　in　view　of　all　the　difficulties　surrounding　that　Territory；　the

danger　of　any　experiment　at　that　time　of　a　popular　vote；　it　would　be

better　there　should　be　no　such　provision　in　the　Toomb's　bill；　and　it

was　my　understanding；　in　all　the　intercourse　I　had；　that　the

Convention　would　make　a　constitution；　and　send　it　here；　without

submitting　it　to　the　popular　vote。〃



Then　Trumbull　follows　on：



〃In　speaking　of　this　meeting　again　on　the　21st　December；　1857

＇Congressional　Globe；　same　vol。；　page　113＇；　Senator　Bigler　said：



〃'Nothing　was　further　from　my　mind　than　to　allude　to　any　social　or

confidential　interview。　　The　meeting　was　not　of　that　character。

Indeed；　it　was　semi…official；　and　called　to　promote　the　public　good。

My　recollection　was　clear　that　I　left　the　conference　under　the

impression　that　it　had　been　deemed　best　to　adopt　measures　to　admit

Kansas　as　a　State　through　the　agency　of　one　popular　election；　and

that　for　delegates　to　this　Convention。　　This　impression　was　stronger

because　I　thought　the　spirit　of　the　bill　infringed　upon　the　doctrine

of　non…intervention；　to　which　I　had　great　aversion；　but　with　the　hope

of　accomplishing　a　great　good；　and　as　no　movement　had　been　made　in

that　direction　in　the　Territory；　I　waived　this　objection；　and

concluded　to　support　the　measure。　　I　have　a　few　items　of　testimony　as

to　the　correctness　of　these　impressions；　and　with　their　submission　I

shall　be　content。　　I　have　before　me　the　bill　reported　by　the　senator

from　Illinois　on　the　7th　of　March；　1856；　providing　for　the　admission

of　Kansas　as　a　State；　the　third　section　of　which　reads　as　follows：



〃That　the　following　propositions　be；　and　the　same　are　hereby　offered

to　the　said　Convention　of　the　people　of　Kansas；　when　formed；　for

their　free　acceptance　or　rejection；　which；　if　accepted　by　the

Convention　and　ratified　by　the　people　at　the　election　for　the

adoption　of　the　constitution；　shall　be　obligatory　upon　the　United

States　and　the　said　State　of　Kansas。〃



The　bill　read　in　his　place　by　the　senator　from　Georgia　on　the　25th　of

June；　and　referred　to　the　Committee　on　Territories；　contained　the

same　section　word　for　word。　　Both　these　bills　were　under

consideration　at　the　conference　referred　to；　but；　sir；　when　the

senator　from　Illinois　reported　the　Toombs　bill　to　the　Senate　with

amendments；　the　next　morning；　it　did　not　contain　that　portion　of　the

third　section　which　indicated　to　the　Convention　that　the　constitution

should　be　approved　by　the　people。　　The　words　〃and　ratified　by　the

people　at　the　election　for　the　adoption　of　the　constitution〃　had　been

stricken　out。'〃



Now；　these　things　Trumbull　says　were　stated　by　Bigler　upon　the　floor

of　the　Senate　on　certain　days；　and　that　they　are　recorded　in　the

Congressional　Globe　on　certain　pages。　　Does　Judge　Douglas　say　this　is

a　forgery？　　Does　he　say　there　is　no　such　thing　in　the　Congressional

Globe？　　What　does　he　mean　when　he　says　Judge　Trumbull　forges　his

evidence　from　beginning　to　end？　　So　again　he　says　in　another　place

that　Judge　Douglas；　in　his　speech；　December　9；　1857　（Congressional

Globe；　part　I。；　page　15）；　stated：



〃That　during　the　last　session　of　Congress；　I　（Mr。　Douglas＇　reported　a

bill　from　the　Committee　on　Territories；　to　authorize　the　people　of

Kansas　to　assemble　and　form　a　constitution　for　themselves。

Subsequently　the　senator　from　Georgia　＇Mr。　Toombs＇　brought　forward　a

substitute　for　my　bill；　which；　after　having　been　modified　by　him　and

myself　in　consultation；　was　passed　by　the　Senate。〃



Now；　Trumbull　says　this　is　a　quotation　from　a　speech　of　Douglas；　and

is　recorded　in　the　Congressional　Globe。　　Is　it　a　forgery？　　Is　it

there　or　not？　　It　may　not　be　there；　but　I　want　the　Judge　to　take

these　pieces　of　evidence；　and　distinctly　say　they　are　forgeries　if　he

dare　do　it。



＇A　voice：〃He　will。〃＇



Well；　sir；　you　had　better　not　commit　him。　　He　gives　other

quotations；another　from　Judge　Douglas。　　He　says：



〃I　will　ask　the　senator　to　show　me　an　intimation；　from　any　one　member

of　the　Senate；　in　the　whole　debate　on　the　Toombs　bill；　and　in　the

Union；　from　any　quarter；　that　the　constitution　was　not　to　be

submitted　to　the　people。　　I　will　venture　to　say　that　on　all　sides　of

the　chamber　it　was　so　understood　at　the　time。　　If　the　opponents　of

the　bill　had　understood　it　was　not；　they　would　have　made　the　point　on

it；　and　if　they　had　made　it；　we　should　certainly　have　yielded　to　it；

and　put　in　the　clause。　　That　is　a　discovery　made　since　the　President

found　out　that　it　was　not　safe　to　take　it　for　granted　that　that　would

be　done；　which　ought　in　fairness　to　have　been　done。〃



Judge　Trumbull　says　Douglas　made　that　speech；　and　it　is　recorded。

Does　Judge　Douglas　say　it　is　a　forgery；　and　was　not　true？　　Trumbull

says　somewhere；　and　I　propose　to　skip　it；　but　it　will　be　found　by　any

one　who　will　read　this　debate；　that　he　did　distinctly　bring　it　to　the

notice　of　those　who　were　engineering　the　bill；　that　it　lacked　that

provision；　and　then　he　goes　on　to　give　another　quotation　from　Judge

Douglas；　where　Judge　Trumbull　uses　this　language：



〃Judge　Douglas；